Jakub Zajicek: Alright. Thanks a lot for joining in Peter. For everyone who is joining right now, we are here today with Peter Loving. Do I pronounce your name correctly by the way?
Peter Loving: Loving.
Jakub Zajicek: Loving. Alright. So let me introduce Peter a little. Peter is from the UK and he runs an extremely successful Facebook group, SAAS founders and Execs, which is short for executor’s and he also helps other SaaS founders to design and create a better product. Did I introduce you correctly?
Peter Loving: That’s great.
Jakub Zajicek: Alright.
Peter Loving: I come from a product background. So, I’ve been a product designer for about 13-14 years and I consult as well. So I consult with SaaS companies around that product and provide design services as well. UI and UX. So, just kind of general product consulting.
Jakub Zajicek: When you say that you’re a product designer that you don’t do the final graphic design you do just the UI and UX or can you tell me a little bit more about how does your work look like exactly?
Peter Loving: I’ll explain a typical process. So far I’ve worked through the whole range of product design related roles and work. So typically, UX design involves designing the experience, right? The user experience but in order to do that, you want to get a good idea of the architecture, the user journeys, the items, and the interactions that you have on certain views of certain pages for example.
Peter Loving: And the way that you design this is generally speaking with users, getting information and data from users about the problems they have. The task that they’d like to perform within an application and feedback from them on how they’d like to do it. And any tests on particular products that they’re using. And then the way to actually design for user experiences create mockups and prototypes, wireframes, wire flows, anything from sketching all the way through to a fully working prototype.
Peter Loving: That represents the way a product works, but it doesn’t necessarily, but it’s not actually a finished product. So for instance, to do that, we use something called X axio. An axio is used to create interactive wireframe prototypes. So it’s like a really cool interactive, usable and functional prototype really. And that’s something that you can use too, for users to test and see if it works, how it works and get some feedback.
Peter Loving: So that’s on the UX side and UX depending on where you are in the process. UX is usually the fundamental thing that comes first. So the way I see it is that UX is the core problem solving, and functionality design process. And the UI is typical, the aesthetic, how it looks, the interactions, how they respond. The space in a page, the layout, the way you represent the design. So if I am working on UI for instance, I would be preparing design mock-ups of like very detailed into interactions with it for different screens with our economists type proper fee color schemes and everything like this. So that’s more of the kind of visual and final of the finessing of a product.
Jakub Zajicek: That’s a pretty interesting topic. I think that a lot of people who are already watching will be really interested in this. And before we dive a bit deeper into it, let me just repeat for people who are joining right now that we are here with Peter Loving from the UK who is the designer of successful SaaS products and founder of a group SaaS founders and Execs. So, do you want to let me tell you a little bit more about how did you actually like got into this space?
Jakub Zajicek: Because, there are a lot of like graphic designers, and a lot of people who are saying that they are UX designers as well. But from my personal experience, not many of them are good. So how did you get into this space and how did you create your personal brand as someone who builds products?
Peter Loving: Well, I’ve always been really fascinated by the products and how they’re designed and how they work. I’m also, it’s a lesser degree, but still, I’m super interested in is how they are marketed, and the sales process as well. So everything that goes into that. But I was funnily enough like I remember being very young and designing products and designing trainers specifically like from a super early age in like a primary school with friends. We used to have a friend and we used to do product design together before we got a clue of what we were doing.
Peter Loving: Sketching up designs for night train and so. Then through school, I was always interested in design but mixed with science. And then when I got to university, by that time I’ve identified product designers, like the thing that matched all the skills, and the interests that I have. So I studied product design in university and that degree was more, to be honest with more focused around industrial product design.
Peter Loving: Designing gadgets, consumer gadgets, anything like an iPhone or the kind of smartwatch or lighting for the home or TV remote control. And when I finished my degree, this is like 15 years ago from now. At that time I had just started. It just became like a new thing that was exciting and friends of mine were all starting to use it. So the web was a really interesting place. Obviously, YouTube and other social platforms Linkedin was already very big.
Peter Loving: I decided to transition my product design skills to the web and what I found that that time is actually, there’s a lot of the same principles and a lot of the same skills and techniques that are used and even the processes for designing products. But then with the web, you need to have some more technical know-how about how development works and how developers would build a design that you create.
Peter Loving: So you have to understand the front end, especially like typically mark our HTML and CSS and you really need to also understand the fundamentals of programming. So I got familiar with HP and Jquery, and I learned fountain development to compliment my design skillset. So from then on, I was freelancing. So I’m one of these people who has never quite fitted into an internal big company role.
Jakub Zajicek: Peter before we jump into this topic, I actually want to separate the interesting thing you said, that you went to a product designing university, and they were teaching you how to do physical products, right? Like iPhones and so on. Why did she choose to go to the web? Like isn’t it more fun to build a product, so you get what you can actually touch.
Peter Loving: No, it was really cool because at that time, Apple, Jonathan Ive was like the lead product designer at Apple, so he was one of the kinds of people that inspired lots of people including me and friends. And while we were at the university. And that is what I wanted to do at that time, I wanted to go into 3D product design. But during the degree, I also got really interested in the web. So, I had these two interests.
Peter Loving: And then when I finished, I found that lots of the jobs for product designers were based in Asia or kind of in remote, I wouldn’t necessarily say completely remote, but in places in Europe that’s like away from the city. So, lots of research and development facilities and not base like in the sensor of a busy European city there, they’re usually away from the city where it’s slightly cheap to run design and engineering teams.
Peter Loving: And so when I finished, I did have some offers, to go and either do internships or take a job, but they were, one was in Germany, one was in the countryside, and I’m from London, so I wanted to stay in London at that time. And so I thought how am I going to stay in London. My hometown which I love and also work in product design and that’s where my interest in the web, came in.
Jakub Zajicek: Alright. So That’s an interesting story. Can you please, explain a little bit more about the freelancing where I stopped you a few minutes ago. So it really doesn’t fit into the classic work environment. I think you want to say something about this, right?
Peter Loving: So, and a lot of SaaS founders are like this too because they’re kind of either people that are very creative or building things or that entrepreneurial. Everybody’s different. So sometimes that kind of a person fits really well into a corporate job and sometimes they don’t. And for me, I was really interested in building, creating a design studio or an agency. So one route to do that is to spend all the time freelancing and building up clients.
Peter Loving: So I did that and I eventually built up a lot of freelancing clients and started an agency. So that was front digital, which we were talking about a bit earlier. Front digital was the agency that came from my freelance, my years of freelancing the group. And I started hiring designers and our hired developers – we had a team So, at that time we had some SaaS clients. And so that’s how I really kind of, I wouldn’t say when I first started freelancing I wasn’t necessarily focused on SaaS.
Peter Loving: It was just on web design. So, then I moved more and more towards product SaaS because that’s the thing allowed and so the agency with that, we had some SaaS costs constantly. So for me, it got really interesting.
Jakub Zajicek: Do you think it was a good transition to go one layer deep because you were just web designing where you expect design and you decided that you will go one layer deep into SaaS and do a niche down. Do you think it was one of the best decisions you did in your business? Because for me personally, when I do something who really brought, it’s quite difficult to target it properly. And I actually explain exactly what you are doing right? Because you are talking to masses, you’re are not talking to one exact person such as a SaaS founder. Was it a good decision for you as well?
Peter Loving: It’s a really good decision. I’d say most of all because it’s the one that is the most engaging and interesting for me to work with. So I love being able to work with the companies, one thing that I find the most interesting is that they have the most interesting problems that building something much more technical than that and just the website. So there’s a lot more problems, a lot more UX and UI problems that they have to work on. So it was really great from that perspective.
Peter Loving: Now, I would also say that it doesn’t sometimes, that decision, I think the most important decision to make us one way where your passion is and where you’re going to be most enthusiastic with your work. So before that, I also had some clients in politics and some clients in PR, for an agency. They were much more profitable clients than some of that we’ve had. I’m not saying we didn’t have very profitable SaaS ones too, but so the decision was good for me from a passionate perspective. But that was the most important. And then for like a financial business decision, I would probably be making more money in another industry.
Jakub Zajicek: But you didn’t feel it in your regards that it’s something you can bring forward?
Peter Loving: I’m in the place that I love, which is the most important thing.
Jakub Zajicek: To believe in the intuition and your guts. That’s really important. Anyway, so you left SaaS and at which point, did you exactly decide that you will start building your own Facebook group?
Peter Loving: It’s been fairly slow in organics though, I’ve had it probably for over two years, maybe two and a half years. And in the beginning, I wasn’t very active with it and it’s become something that gets, that’s more active now. There’s more engagement. There are a lot of users, there are some really good SaaS founders in, so your conversations are in a much higher quality. So it’s been a good process.
Jakub Zajicek: Alright. A lot of people are actually watching right now and will be watching in the replay. You’re working with a lot of SaaS founders, product designers, and marketers, what would you say is the number one problem they all do or most of them do? When it comes to building a new product how are you helping them with it?
Peter Loving: There were a number of different problems and obviously the problem founders can be often quite specific to their team and that product. I find that more and more as I consult with founders that SaaS companies have a general range of problems, but then when you get into the details, they have their own very specific problems. So let’s talk about the general ones. I would say for early stage teams, the general challenge is finding product-market fit and finding a method for onboarding and finding customers is that find value in the product and that are of a good fit for the vision of the product and whether that company…
Jakub Zajicek: Alright, let me stop you right here. What do you think is the best process for finding product-market fit? Because like finding a product-market fit should actually begin before you started building the product, right?
Peter Loving: I agree with that. For sure. So this is it. People come about it in different ways. The best way in my opinion to do is to start with identifying a problem that a certain demographic of people have. And you can stop serving those people and try to help them solve that problem. It doesn’t necessarily need to be a product in the beginning. So a very common, beginning for a SaaS company is actually to be a service-based business, or an agency because these companies find common challenges and common problems with a certain customer base.
Peter Loving: So one good way to find the product-market fit is by providing the service. And then when you start developing that service, you look at ways to productize the service and then you look at ways to turn that product to service into a product that delivers for you. So those steps can be quite challenging but there’s, a definite process that involves changing your business model, and it involves pivoting but it can work and then it can become something really scalable, and you’ve proven the most challenging part in the beginning, which is the product-market fit now…
Jakub Zajicek: Alright. So, product-market fit like I heard it actually from my experience as well that finding a product-market fit on the first try is almost impossible, right? And there are a lot of iterations are needed to be done to actually find the product market fit. Let me plug a little story from, I just recalled from the founders of The Twitch. Do you know Twitch streaming platform? Do you know the story behind it because it’s quite funny?
Peter Loving: Some are funny, but I can’t remember. So…
Jakub Zajicek: So, then they basically started suggesting TV and it was the most stupid idea. Like even, they are saying it now, they were saying it before, but they went for it. And it was about that you would wear a device and then we just stream your life 24/7. And the first one who tried it was a founder called Justin and then they found that nobody wants to use it, nobody wants to buy it and but they figured out that people are more interested in watching other people play video games while there were use it using the device, they’re on them.
Jakub Zajicek: So that’s how they actually pivoted and, began finding the right product-market fit, right. So what would you say that when it comes to product-market fit is the right process to iterate and to just test new things to find if it’s really clicking?
Peter Loving: That’s a really cool story. And I’d say for product companies like that they are, it’s quite rare to have that kind of story and to become such a huge company like have that explosive growth. But they’ve taken that other model that I was going to go to about. You don’t have an idea or a concept and then you’re building a solution for it and then you have a product and then you do a search and you’re looking at how to fit this product or an idea to a sudden application to get that fit.
Peter Loving: So that’s another way if you don’t start with the service and this can be quite a labor intensive because each time you want to build, I mean each time you want to test you are either adopting your product or you’re changing the audience and trying to present it to a new audience. So the best way to do this is in small incremental steps that give the minimum amounts of resource required for a development team to actually stop programming or changing things or adding different features.
Peter Loving: But really one of the best things you can do here is a lot of customer interviews and a lot of customers research. In getting feedback from potential audiences. Now that’s also a kind of difficult process to do because you don’t always get feedback that gives you direct information that really would work. Sometimes you get feedback. People don’t say what they say and what they do and different things, it is very common, especially in customer research.
Peter Loving: So you need to kind of be diligent with what you do and then also introduce tests in that. So perhaps you’d want to do rapid prototyping and screen share rapid prototype and record how users react to that and use methods like that reduce the amount of development requirement but let you get the learning outcomes as easy as possible.
Jakub Zajicek: It’s quiet, difficult to pick what you should focus on when it comes to changing your product. If you should change like the product features, or you should just change the messaging towards the audience, right. Because you can have the best product, and you’re just presenting it to the wrong audience, right. Or your product it’s just wrong. It’s blah and you just need to completely rebuild it. Alright. That’s interesting. So that’s a number one problem when it comes to UX and the SaaS businesses. Are there any other programs that you recall?
Peter Loving: So that’s a problem with the product market fail. Wouldn’t necessarily say that’s UX problem, but there were…
Jakub Zajicek: Sorry.
Peter Loving: I see a problem being also with the results. This is probably the biggest common problem besides having paying customers that are the resource required to build a product based company and grow that company to a place where it’s revenue positive, right? Shall we say? And that’s because if you think about it, a product business is something that requires an intense amount of capital and resources to build something that provides value.
Peter Loving: And you have to invest all of that time, effort and resources before you get to a point where the value that is delivered by the product far outweighs the price and the cost of someone’s willingness to pay. So the biggest challenge is finding, capital like revenue or investment and also the resource of actual team members. So having the right talent in the team, finding that talent, having, being able to attract the talent, when there’s probably little capital in the company. So, finding the right co-founders, these are very common early challenges as well.
Peter Loving: And even when companies scale, it’s difficult to get half the right talent and the capital to keep on investing in growing and building more value in the product.
Jakub Zajicek: Do you assist in these later stages of the product building or are you more when the product is starting and you’re hired as a consultant and a designer?
Peter Loving: I’ve worked at both stages, so I’ve designed products from that, the first DOI that they never had after they have the concepts of the product. And I’ve also redesigned the UIF for 10 million pounds for a SaaS business from the UK. So, these are very different challenges because for the earlier teams it’s very easy to design UI quickly. But it always gets difficult when you’re committing that UI into the development.
Peter Loving: And you also, you want to execute it in the best way so that you don’t have problems like usability issues and that you have high quality. The kind of UI that stays with the product for that gives us some longevity, you noticed so that the investment in the UI has a long lifespan.
Jakub Zajicek: Alright. It’s all comes back to having the right people on board and working with the right people?
Peter Loving: I was just going to touch on that point of view like at a much later stage in a SaaS company. They have a big challenge with technical debt. So if you’re designing or making product improvements on a big product, you have to be really careful about deciding which area to work on prioritizing it. The scope of the design and the input, the implications of that design for the development team and for users. So then you’re working on a bigger framework.
Peter Loving: You have a detailed roadmap. You have product managers, product owner, and the design team. So the decisions are all taken and with much more to consider in that kind of view. And those are the differences. You can’t move so quickly. And you can’t just redesign the whole application. On one application, we redesigned it. It took a year to do the UI, we would do one section, one area of the functionality and then the development team would have that ready two or three months later. So decisions get more important and more involved.
Jakub Zajicek: But now you’re talking about more later stages companies, young companies are just starting out. They had the advantage that they can iterate quickly and they can do things like really quickly because they are not big yet. But what I see really often that these companies don’t choose the right co-founders and start and there are maybe two business guys or marketing guys or three, or just due to technical guys, exceptional developers, but they do not know how to help think about their customers and about marketing. What would you say that, is the ideal team when you’re starting to build a new product?
Peter Loving: I think the ideal team is an engineer, a really talented engineer with the right, the right kind of experience, the right stack to develop for the product or application that you are trying to build. Someone who will stay, he should be really committed and not a developer who has other projects, not someone who can only give a small amount of time but someone who can really commit and is really experienced can lead a development scene once you get going.
Peter Loving: A product person and then a strong salesperson that would be the ideal scenario for me. So, I think the strongest teams are often like three or four co-founders. Obviously, equity split much more. But if you have four talented people join really well together, you will have an incredibly talented team and a strong position. So if you have four, you’d have a developer, a product person, a sales or marketing person and then for the fourth one I’d probably add, a financial…
Jakub Zajicek: C.O.O.
Peter Loving: C.O.O. or C.F.O. You don’t really need a C.F.O. from the beginning, but once you scale and things get really start to grow, then that role becomes super important. And the beauty of having this kind of structure for co-founders is that everybody syncs very differently, has different talents and brings a different perspective to the team. So decision making, problem-solving and the places you can go open up a whole new kind of range of direction that’s more likely to put you on the track of success rather than if you had like two developers or two designers or not.
Jakub Zajicek: You mentioned that these people should be able to work on the product full time. Don’t have any other project on the side. I would just add that it’s really difficult, not difficult, but it’s really important to have at least one year of cash sitting in a bank, so you can survive without investment, and you can just fully focus on product because running out of money actually killed a lot of startups.
Peter Loving: I’d say that’s probably the biggest one. It’s like the time that it takes you to start generating revenue. Because if you don’t money and it means that you haven’t quite gotten to the place where you are making revenue yet. So it’s difficult for you to fundraise because nobody will necessarily invest in you at that point. So at least to feel if you get to a point where you’re generating revenue, then it’s easier to gain investments, whether that, whether you’re, kind of at seed stage or angel stage, you already want to be able to demonstrate traction and really promising business model.
Jakub Zajicek: When do you think is the right time for a company to start monetizing their product because do you think it’s from the very start they should start charging people?
Peter Loving: My point of view, it depends on your use case for your product and your audience. Everybody has a unique kind of offering audience and product and team. So it does vary. But generally, the principle that I like to follow is to sell from the very beginning because of that’s really the lifeblood of business sales, right? So if a company is selling, even before they have a product, they are finding a route to market and they’re learning so much from the audience or the target customers that they’re going after.
Peter Loving: And this insight, it gives you the ability and the confidence to know that when you encounter problems, you’ll find ways to resolve them and find a route to market through selling. I like the idea of being able to sell a product before it exists. And in fact, I met one guy who I gave a talk once and he and I got talking over a few months when we stayed in touch, but he basically bootstrap, let’s call it a micro SaaS product.
Peter Loving: But basically for him it was generating his livelihood, his income to live, and, he went and found a target audience and he basically pitched them a product and they gave him some feedback to the point where they said that he had an idea that they would pay for. Though he got and pitched to 40 potential customers, and 10 of them said that they’d pay him up front for the product before he built it. So he got, he generated, it wasn’t a great deal. It was like around a 100k, probably just from 10 customers. And it gave him the money to build the product. Obviously, he had contracts with all of them and then…
Jakub Zajicek: Just delivered.
Peter Loving: He delivered, you tell, but that was such a brilliant way to start because by customer research and selling so it’s a really strong position to be in.
Jakub Zajicek: If, you could do that.
Peter Loving: From day one, it guides your product.
Jakub Zajicek: People saying that I will buy your product but it doesn’t necessarily mean that they will just take out their credits cards and buy your product, right. I actually like the validation with pre-orders and I heard a story as well as they took it even a little bit more back, even before charging people and even before actually any idea. And they just went to the target market they want to serve and they asked them, Hey, what’s your biggest challenge with x? Right?
Jakub Zajicek: So, it’s a very open-ended question and they got a lot of answers and different answers. So like from 100 different answers, they were able to come up with a product that would serve the audience perfectly, right? And they know how and what words do you use? What messaging technique do you use? Because they just told them, so and then they were able to like get pre-orders as well.
Peter Loving: I mean it’s a really good approach. I prefer the approach you’re building up a relationship and getting to know the customer or a potential customer on quite on a fairly intimate basis at that early stage. And I see a lot of people asking that question now. What’s your biggest challenge with x? And they posted a lot on Facebook groups as well, but it doesn’t get a lot of engagement because it’s so broad and I think people generally know what they’re trying to do with developing a product or service.
Peter Loving: But if you can get on a more of a personal level conversations and some calls and you can record them, have a screening call and record it. Get dates and build a relationship, then you’re in a really super strong position I think. I like that approach. That’s a really strong approach for the early days.
Jakub Zajicek: Alright. So let’s move a little bit further. So let’s say that we have already some paying customers in our product. When would you say that it’s the best time to start scaling? At which point would you wait a little longer?
Peter Loving: It depends on how they’re using the product and the engagement that you have. I want to see a core user base that is using it for common reasons and then we’ll get in similar value out of it, out of the product. And also that I’d like to get an understanding of the lifetime value of customers and the cost of acquisition. So if you find that you’re managing to get customers on board and they start to use the product a little bit but they don’t last and they change fairly soon, that would be my next step, so focus on.
Peter Loving: And I’d be doing once again some customer research interviews and some direct message kind of chats, to try and understand what those problems are using things like full story and Hotjar to observe and gain analytics on user behavior. So I want to get the CAC to a point where it says, this is what, this is a general principle that they say lifetime value should be three times the cost of customer acquisition, right?
Peter Loving: So if you get it to that point that means you have relatively spoken fairly good retention within the product. I’ve looked at ways to increase that. Look at the core value and get the market that you could really focus on and then you’re a probably in a good position to consider scaling. But also in order to scale you really, once again, you’re at that position where capital is a challenge. So that tends to be around the stage where angel funding or around an intro funding comes in to get moving.
Jakub Zajicek: We have a question here from a similar space. And Joseph is asking what is the best practice for a SaaS standup to go from no capital to residual sales using lifetime deal whole wholesaler like pitch graph for example, or initial capital? Follow up question. What should the agreement contain and what it should not contain? So the first question, how to go from no capital to residue or sales using lifetime deals.
Peter Loving: In order to have the lifetime, you need to have the base of a product already.
Jakub Zajicek: That’s true.
Peter Loving: And I see some lifetime deals are on early stage being wasted and they couldn’t monetize it. So if you don’t have let’s take the example, the scenario where you don’t have savings and you haven’t got a year of buffer time, then you want to position, you have to work to pay for your living. And if either working on building a product in your spare time, evenings and weekends. And I definitely wouldn’t recommend people do this on their own because that time you’re tired from work.
Peter Loving: Even if you’re motivated it can be quite challenging to be efficient and get things done. And it’s quite isolating if you’re working a day job. And then you’re also trying to say, I just actually wouldn’t really recommend it on. You’re super driven and you know that you’ll have a break while you can recharge after a while. So this is why I sometimes talk about the service model of actually selling and delivering a service before you build a product. And if you can deliver a service, even if that’s manually, then you’re generating some revenue that you could actually live on and this is for people who were in that scenario.
Peter Loving: Once you’re doing that, you can then start setting aside some time to build a product where you get it to the point that you might be able to get an early cohort of users and then you can build a kind of roadmap towards doing a lifetime deal. If you do have a buffer of money or savings for six months to a year, then I would go, I would really go all in on looking for the problem that you want to solve and doing what we were speaking about the finding potential customers and interfering them.
Peter Loving: Now, in my opinion, that is kind of like a sales job. It’s like you’re prospecting because you are reaching out to people. You’re asking them if they’ll give you some time to interview them and get and gain insights. So once again, the closer you are to the selling as an early stage product company, I think it puts you in the best situation and then builds up to arrive something.
Peter Loving: But you know the common ways of finding customers now unlike in the early days, I wouldn’t say it’s like content marketing because that’s – time in turn you know it’s resource intensive and it takes a long time to get customers from that. I’d be focusing on outreach and if you have the budget to be doing some advertising, but only once you’ve built a funnel that you know you can, people will come up with. And so I’d be doing kind of outbound prospecting through Linkedin and all Facebook if your audience is active there.
Peter Loving: And then I would be also looking at ways I would look at building a funnel that converts testing conversions, start with a landing page and then, try and scale that with ads or webinars. I mean that’s your look-on-the model now. And then if you get to a point where you get some customers and you feel like you have the potential to gain traction, then you might be in the right kind of situation to consider an Ltd. Do you think that covers the question?
Jakub Zajicek: I think kind of, but I think the question was more about from no residual sales. No, from no capital to residues sales using an Ltd.
Peter Loving: Using Ltd? Right. In my opinion, I don’t think I would do Ltd when I have no residual sales. I just don’t think I’d do it because, I know companies do, but I’d like to onboard users where I feel like I have a sense of value and I have a feeling that I can sell the product. Right? Because if you can’t like today you might onboard loads of different customers and utilization will be super weak. They might not get value from the product. So I will try and put it off.
Jakub Zajicek: So if you know your market and if you sort of found the product market fit, then you might consider Ltd, right?
Peter Loving: Quite a few companies that have done them and later on, they have a product that they had been working on for ages. They have like 90,000 users and they did a lifetime deal. They went with Appsumo and they raised 80K in sales from that. So it was a good injection of capital for them, gave them a bit more runway and they know the value of their product and they already know that people will pay to use it.
Peter Loving: So an Ltd for them was in a much stronger situation. I think it’s easier to sell as an Ltd as well as people can see you. You know if I didn’t have sales and as I went into an ltd, I’d be really concerned about finding out would customers stick. If they’re going to be a good fit for a longer term because then you’re going to get – that’s the decision that you’re going to gear up for your company and your product towards catering to that type of customer. So, if you get it wrong, it can cost you a lot of time and money and that could be a potential route to reason to fail. So be careful about it.
Jakub Zajicek: Alright. Thanks a lot. I think it was a great answer, and we are already alive for 40 minutes. It’s almost time to wrap it up. And I would like to ask you, because like at the end of the all or live sessions, we have, we give our, guests, opportunity to pitch their product if they are SaaS founders, or they’re a Facebook community to our community here at PitchGround. So, I will give you just 90 seconds. And if you want?
Peter Loving: Of course.
Jakub Zajicek: It’s SaaS executives and founders, so we are ready when you ready.
Peter Loving: Generally, well, I help SaaS companies improve their product so that they can get more users, increase utilization, build value, and also increase the pricing so it helps them to set on that ideal customer in the market by building up. That’s a quality product. That’s what’s my consulting is. And I’m currently launching a service called the UI Bootcamp. So if you’d like to hear more about how we do that on the UI Bootcamp, you can get in touch with me on my website – peterloving.com
Jakub Zajicek: You still have a quite a lot of time. 50 seconds.
Peter Loving: I don’t think I’ll need anymore.
Jakub Zajicek: Perfect. Alright, Peter, it was an awesome interview. Thanks a lot for sharing all these golden nuggets. I said I’ll just pick the favorite one. I will read the posts and I will bring people into your Facebook group. Thanks a lot again and I hope that we’ll stay in touch. Feel free to become an active member of the community network people.
Peter Loving: I’m in the PitchGound”s group too, so I’m really enjoying seeing the development stats, it’s really active…
Jakub Zajicek: Awesome.
Peter Loving: It is really a nice group to be involved in too, so I’ll be active in there as well.
Jakub Zajicek: Thank you very much.
Peter Loving: Cool.
Jakub Zajicek: All right.
Peter Loving: Thanks for the interview, Jakub. Thanks for the chat. I’ve enjoyed it.
Jakub Zajicek: Alright, me too. Thank you. Bye.